Re: [-empyre-] free will and determinism

[Alan Sondheim <sondheim@panix.com>]

Or perhaps a central product if one buys into the anthrocentric positions
- i.e. that our consciousness / awareness of _this_ universe is a
necessary precondition, that description is part of it. This buys into the
inflationary model - Alan

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:

> Henry:
>
> I'd say that consciousness is not overlaid on top of particles, this doesn't
> make sense. But that what we call consciousness is an unintentional product
> of the quantum world. A "bi-product."
>
> -Joel
>
>
> >
> > paper by Jaron Lanier:
> >
> > http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/lanier03/lanier_index.html
> >
> > A quote:
> >
> >
> >  Another way I approached the same question was to
> > say, if consciousness were missing from the universe,
> > how would things be different? A                range
> > of answers is possible. The first is that nothing
> > would be different, because consciousness wasn't there
> > in the first place. This would be Dan Dennett's
> > response (at least at that time), since he would get
> > rid of ontology entirely. The second answer is that
> > the whole universe would disappear because it needed
> > consciousness. That idea was characteristic of
> > followers of some of John Archibald Wheeler's earlier
> > work, who seemed to believe that consciousness plays a
> > role in keeping things afloat by taking the role of
> > the observer in certain quantum-scale interactions.
> > Another answer would be that the consciousness-free
> > universe would be similar but not identical, because
> > people would get a little duller. That would be the
> > approach of certain cognitive scientists, suggesting
> > that consciousness plays a specific, but limited
> > practical function in the brain.
> >
> >  And then there's another answer, which initially
> > might sound like Dennett's: that if consciousness were
> > not present, the trajectories of all
> > particles would remain identical. Every measurement
> > you could make in the universe would come out
> > identically. However, there would                be no
> > "gross", or everyday objects. There would be neither
> > apples nor houses, nor brains to perceive them.
> > Neither would there be words or thoughts, though the
> > electrons and chemical bonds that                would
> > otherwise comprise them would remain the just the same
> > as before. There would only be the particles that make
> > up everyday things, in exactly the same positions they
> > would otherwise occupy.                In other words,
> > consciousness is an ontology that is overlaid on top
> > of these particles. If there were no consciousness the
> > universe would be perfectly described as being nothing
> > but particles.
> > _______________________________________________
> > empyre forum
> > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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